Who really broke up the Avengers?
Because ever since I saw Captain America: Brave New World, Sam said to Ross that he broke up the Avengers when it's mostly Zemo who tore the Avengers apart.
But then there's Tony and Steve arguing about the accords which led to them splitting up the Avengers and have that airport fight.
So who really broke up the Avengers?
But then there's Tony and Steve arguing about the accords which led to them splitting up the Avengers and have that airport fight.
So who really broke up the Avengers?
Commentaires
This is completely different from the comics, where Tony finds out about the SHRA before it's passed and comes out in favor of it. Tony didn't come out in favor of the Accords, they already passed.
Hypothetically as zemo would have found another way to cause disruption lol.
He would just take him to the Avengers compound. There is zero chance any government would try to force access to it.
>Tony gets involved when T’Challa and other heroes try to hunt down Bucky too
T'Challa would probably start some nonsense on the compound and we would get a Wakanda vs Avengers style of battle, but Wakanda wouldn't commit their full forces, so it would be more the Black Panther and maybe some warriors vs the Avengers. And the Avengers would win.
> a rift between Tony and Steve starts to form over Bucky
I think it would still come to light that Bucky killed Tony's parents, but without the initial rift of the Accords, Tony and Steve would be able to talk it out.
2. The Accords weren’t the reason the Avengers split. Tony came over to Cap’s side toward the end before Zemo completely shattered their friendship using Bucky.
Imagine finding that out, the moral compass and leader of your gang who you fund btw and literally lives off your generosity has known all along and kept that from you. Scumbag behaviour
Also, you really blaming her trying to stop a guy exploding and killing more people in process and saying that cause the Accords lol.
So, really long term, it’s a good thing Red Skull’s dad didn’t use a condom.
That's how you make a what if episode!
If the Russians didn't send any of the other assassins they made that zemo couldn't have manipulated into his scheming.
What bugs me is that dam camera,
1, why is a camera watching some random ass country road
2, considering the year of the assassin cameras were barely in cities never mind country side unnamed roads
3, if that camera was there winter soldier would not have chosen that exact spot for the murder
I just doubt they would have said make sure you get his death on camera so we can keep it on file for 30 years. That's my rant over haha
He signed the accords out of fear, then his ego prevented him from calling Cap when he was at the sanctum.
Not saying the outcome would have been different, but BOTH were choices that Tony made unilaterally, without talking to the rest of them. Those decisions split the group.
Then, Tony attacked Bucky even though he knew Bucky was being mind controlled. Given Tony’s past (selling weapons to terrorists), you’d think he would have more compassion to past mistakes.
So when Tony accuses Cap with throwing the “what if we fail?/well do that together” line in his face, it was TONYS decision not to call him.
Tony broke up the avengers
The accords were just about the various governments being afraid of the avengers and wanting to control them.
The movie also doesn't really go into it. It seems like Tony based chose the "retire" option after the movie. And was only working with Ross in order to help his friends.
He initially had the same motivations as Cap, but he was different after Wanda’s vision. His fear and anxiety controlled his decisions.
Year one Tony would have never signed the accords. Tony that snapped never would have signed the accords. But anxiety, panic attack, post Wanda’s vision Tony? He signed before even talking to the team
You want to argue that he went to Afghanistan in the armor that was breaking some kind of law? That's a bit tricky since we don't have a lot of details. What judicial system would prosecute him?
Let's say that Tony doesn't sign the accords alongside Cap. All his properties and assets are seized. He's lost his company, wealth, and in theory all his armors. He's an enemy of the state, and all his associates are arrested. Pepper and Happy are in jail.
He was a hypocrite for siding with the Accords and then breaking them every chance he got and is the true villain of the Infinity Saga for insisting on keeping a googolplex of people dead when they could have been saved.
Ross is just a government dufus.
Also she force Hela to turn Evil and the Red Skull to become a Nazi.
Pretty sure she caused the black winter that destroyed all of Galans universe forcing him to fly into the cosmic egg turning him into Galactus the world eater!!
You could argue that is what caused the rift between Tony and Steve though.
To use the Car Analogy, If Bucky's Body is the car then Bucky himself would be locked inside Car Trunk.
How were Accords ever going to reduce or stop the casualities & destruction incase something happens.
Accords were an oversight in Avengers, but it doesn't stop the events that happened in MCU from happening, infact you'd actually increase the problems as the committee waste precious time in arguing about whether to send Avengers or not.
Stark got mad at Rogers for wanting to help his friend to was clearly NOT mind controlled anymore.
If anyone gets the blame, it's stark.
Frankly, the rest of the world was right that there needed to be checks and balances on Avenger level power. While SW was trying to save people from a suicide bomber, she did inadvertently cause the deaths of hundreds of innocent people. Hulk really did go rampaging through a densely populated city putting thousands of people in harm's way. Tony really did have enough firepower to level square miles of Manhattan. That sort of destructive ability needed to be controlled and constrained.
Steve being so morally pure was also blinding. Since he was always a righteous man trusted to lead he never considered the question of beyond that.
The comic book civil war runs are majorly flawed but one ending I liked was civilian bystanders potentially sacrificing themselves to hold Steve back to save Ironman as the fight was racking up collateral damage. In that moment Steve realized that to the citizens of the United States he was a rogue paramilitary fighting for the right to kill them with impunity and that when that happen he had lost so he surrendered.
Which dumbass Avenger was it that decided the world needed a robot policing it? Oh it was iron man and how did that robot turn out? Oh it tried to destroy the world and blew up a country along the way?
Which Avenger is it that decided ALL the Avengers needed to become the Governments bitches who have to toe the company line? Oh it’s once again iron man, he decided unilaterally behind ALL the Avengers back and then sprung it on them with no warning when Stark is the avenger that’s caused the most unnecessary damage out of them all.
Zemo I’ll add was also a result of Stark’s actions, Zemo’s family was killed due to Stark’s dumbass making Ultron that blew up Sokovia.
Which Avenger is it that’s forcing ALL the other Avengers to sign the accords, when said Avenger is breaking the accords when it suits his needs anyway? Oh yeah it’s fucking iron man.
Iron man is a hypocritical wanker trying to bring Steve in for breaking the accords when stark himself does it multiple times, but I guess only Stark’s allowed to break the rules? Laws for thee but not the arrogant billionaires I guess.
Steve was RIGHT in Civil War, are you saying Steve should have sat on his ass, and let Bucky be murdered by the SWAT Team and Black Panther beCaUse of ThE ACCords? Is that what you are saying? Is that morally correct when Bucky wasn’t even responsible for the bombing?
It’s especially ironic seeing as it’s once again iron man that goes off the reservation, breaks the accords and then nearly murder someone again because Stark’s an emotionally comprised child that can’t control himself.
Black Panther already said it, if he's innocent, why run? Turns out later, that Wakanda also have ways to break mind control. So it's more a case of Jackasses doing action hero shit \*instead\* of doing the morally correct thing. It's pretty corrupt to say it's even morally correct to escape accountability. Obviously the right thing to do is to surrender and stand trial so the truth can come out.
This is exactly as the previous commented said about hubris.
Tony wanted a redemption arc/proof he’s doing things differently after Ultron so bad he signed on to work under Ross of all people.
Steve created distrust by not telling Tony about his parents.
Putting aside the other three for a second, all the reasonings I've seen here for why it was solely Tony's fault are especially smooth-brained. You can tell they only processed 20% of what they watched and only remembered 5% of that 20% when writing their answer.
Instead he went off on his own, against the accords, and put his friends who had signed in a position where they had to apprehend him.
All he needed to do was trust tony with bucky but he didn't(I am not talking about his parents Murder, cap should have contacted tony when he started recruiting the team).
Tony was a deeply polarizing individual and he created rifts left and right. He was respected but he still got on people's nerves because he was arrogant (even though he could back it up) and impulsive (usually well intentioned). Tony created a huge rift in Ultron when he made a lot of choices alone that would affect a lot of people without consulting anyone. (he more so pressured Bruce into assisting rather than consulting with him.) He wasn't particularly apologetic about it that *we* saw until he was directly confronted at the beginning in Civil War. He then went on to tell the team "we need to be put in check" after they had to respond to a problem **he created.** All Zemo did was drive a wedge into the rift already there.
After Steve tried to explain what was happening, Tony didn't care enough to listen. Had he, Cap, Tony and everyone else could have gone to the Hydra base together and the reveal of Bucky killing Tony's parents never had to happen, or there could have been more mediation in the moment if it still happened. And if it's never brought up then, it can happen at a later, more controlled time. Funniest part, Cap and crew (Maybe not Scott) probably would have given themselves up willingly once they knew Zemo wasn't releasing more winter soldiers. The fight never had to even happen. Tony was too caught up in his guilt and being Ross' dog to get the full context of the situation.
Zero comment on whether he was right or wrong in doing so. And whether Ross, the UN or Tony put the decision on him is irrelevant, for the purpose of OP's question.
A good comparison is WWII. England and France are the ones who techncially began it by formally declaring war, but the question of who the aggressor was and who was 'right' is an entirely seperate one. Like Cap, they could have done nothing and let things play out but they did not and - for better or worse - took a stand that formally caused divisions and began a larger conflict.
It's probably a good thing the Bucky got snapped because of he was still with Steve one endgame Tony might never have agreed to help with the time travel.
Zemo only lighted a match and the accords only put labels on them and as to whose actions would be illegal and whatnot. But Cap would have shed the entire blood of the avengers just to protect Bucky. He had an attachment to his old classic life and wouldn't trade that with anyone
Tony, instead of properly getting over the trauma from the Battle of New York, created Ultron without consulting the other Avengers (except for Banner). Because of that, he blindly chose to follow the Accords without any question, and when he was finally about to realize Zemo's machination, he chose to attack Bucky instead... only because of what the Winter Soldier did to his parents.
Steve, while being rightfully cautious about politicians and agendas because of Hydra, failed to realize how badly what happened in Sokovia and Lagos had damaged the Avengers' reputation. He even encouraged other Avengers to rather ignore any negative criticism from the press, politicians and civilians while naïvely believing that being more careful next time alone would restore the reputation. And Steve also didn't tell Tony about the Winter Soldier killing Howard and Maria.
Thaddeus Ross, more focused on his own agendas and maintaining his reputation, chose to enforce his and the U.N.'s own vision of protecting the world on the Avengers, but also allowed Zemo to totally fool him. And even when Thanos' minions attacked Earth, he still rather demanded the arrest of Rogers' team instead of focusing on the true enemy. The Blip finally made him realize his mistake with the Accords, but not be fully honest of his past mistakes until his rampage as the Red Hulk.
As for Zemo, allowed to let the grief and anger of his loss over the deaths of his son, wife and father to control him. He was totally willing to create a world without a superhero team to protect it in times of need... only to get some small selfish satisfaction before planning to kill himself.
At the end of the day, Steve was unwilling to sign and the other Avengers who didn't sign were aligned with Steve.
We can look at it from an external point of view that Steve is the moral backbone and that he generally is never wrong morally or ethically, but from an in-universe perspective that can't be known. From an in-universe perspective, the Avengers are a walking nightmare legally and diplomatically. They enter a country, their actions generally result in extensive collateral damage (and civilian casualties in the worst-case scenarios), and then they fly back to the Avengers HQ in the USA.
What happens when an Avenger makes a decision that leads to civilians dying or large collateral damage? Who is responsible for paying for it? Could the civilian deaths be classed as involuntary manslaughter? More importantly: **Where is the oversight?**
With Ultron, Tony and Bruce should have immediately been in custody to have their actions reviewed by an independent third party who could make a factual non-biased assessment of what happened and determine what went wrong. Were they criminally negligent or was Ultron's activation outside of what could be reasonably expected from Tony and Bruce? Tony has a proven track record of creating and managing AIs (U, DUM-E, Butterfingers, JARVIS, FRIDAY), so for Ultron to go so wrong would be a surprise. Plus, when Tony and Bruce left the lab to join the party, they had been unable to make Ultron work up until then so Ultron activating while they were away would be a surprise to them as well; Tony and Bruce would be guilty of leaving the integration process unsupervised, but beyond that you would need the independent third party (who would have experts in the closest and relevant fields) to assess and decide. Whether Tony and Bruce can be held responsible for the deaths caused by Ultron can only be determined if it is determined that they can be held responsible for the creation of the Ultron that tries to end the world (Ultron being a true AGI that can make his own decisions does make this much more complicated).
With Lagos, Wanda should be in custody as they would need to investigate whether her actions fall under the definition of involuntary manslaughter; while Steve would be held responsible as the commanding officer/leader of the group. As the leader of the Avengers, accountability for their actions would fall on Steve's shoulders. If his decision making (to bring Wanda on the Lagos mission) is assessed to be at least partly responsible, then the involuntary manslaughter is also on him as well. Did Wanda need extra training before going on missions and would it have helped? Was there a lack of communication between the Avengers and the Nigerian government, who likely could have helped evacuate the surrounding area for the mission and to help contain Crossbones if required?
Stop glazing the egomaniac.
Steve tried telling Tony that Bucky wasn't to blame, that the psychiatrist (Zemo) who wanted a moment alone with Bucky was the bad guy but Tony wouldn't listen. At this point they had been through so much together, to me this was an Idiot Plot Trope, in which a character needs to be incredibly stupid in order to move the plot forward.
Tony could've said, 'ok, let's check it out', but instead instigated a fight that almost got Rhodes killed (and almost others if you count all the close calls).
He says "we need to be kept in check" but that was just Tony crowdsourcing his own guilt. Nobody else had done anything close to what Tony unleashed with Ultron (and not for nothing but the Starks had been in the literal business of murder for decades). The only thing that really needed to be kept in check was Tony's ego/arrogance and the very second he met resistance he proved that by doubling-down.
Imprisoning Wanda was just offensive. Wanda tried to save civilians on the ground from an explosion. She succeeded but instead the explosion killed someone "important" (the only real reason she was used as a scapegoat). The explosion was not her fault. It was Crossbone's.
Crossbone being one of the PILES and PILES of HYDRA agents infesting SHIELD and other government agencies (which utterly dismantles the notion that such agencies were trustworthy). Lets not forget that the world council Rhodey was so eager to worship wanted to - and TRIED - to nuke NYC.
For the accords: Egotistical Alcoholic War Profiteer, Career Authoritarian, Cynical Assassin, Robot who Confuses Correlation with Causation
Against: Captain America, decorated war hero known across the world for integrity and eternal self-sacrifice
Sorry this is simply not. Even. Close.
Zemo, Ross, Tony and Steve.
None of them budged from their stance.
After the extremis situation he caused in invincible iron man.. dude was like we need to all be registered.
He always knows best in his mind..
I would blame tony.
But in the end, it was Zemo who broke the Avengers apart. His plan for revenge against the heroes led him discovering a H.Y.D.R.A. base in Siberia of Winter Soldiers, and uncovering the real truth of Tony's parents' deaths.
To make matters worse, that broke Tony in what he saw as the ultimate act of betrayal, from someone he fought beside with, whom his father respected.
Ross was the beginning of the end of the Avengers, Tony split the team into two, but Zemo destroyed them as a whole. Hence why that led to Thanos winning, because the fractured heroes weren't together.
Zemo just used the whole situation to his advantage
-Bruce Banner
He blames himself internally but to outside he blames Wanda and co with the accord. He makes them pay for what is mostly his sins including Ultron.
Team Cap all the way. I mean it is clear by who is on each teams side. Cap got everyone including Widow at the end while Tony has to recruit a teenager, his creation aka Vision, Black Panther, there to get revenge from Bucky and Rhodey who is just his +1 basically.
Zeno: had a motive for why he did what he did. The avengers was in a battle it killed his… I can’t remember who exactly died but he blames them for it. Rightly so. Same thing happened in the beginning of the movie when the black lady was telling Tony about her son that died due to the avengers fighting. He had everything in motion. The bomb that kills tachaka a posing as the winter soldier to do so. This gives tachalla a reason to go after Bucky. He knew about the death of Tony’s parents and used that in the final fight. So he had everything in motion. He broke the trust between Steve and Tony. Which is a way the avengers broke up bc Steve and Tony were basically the leaders of the avengers (more so Steve than Tony but you get the point).
Steve: oh boy. Steve my man. If Steve would’ve just told Tony about his parents, things would’ve slightly (maybe) been ok. I still think Tony would’ve crashed out but maybe their trust with each other wouldn’t be as broken as it was/became. Steve was kinda wrong and kinda right for defending Bucky bc Bucky was mind controlled and he didn’t have control of his actions so you can take that as you may. Bucky was Steve’s first friend/best friend so it’s rational to think he would save Bucky or choose Bucky over Tony. When the accords are being brought up Steve makes a good point. Which I’ll sum it up to, if they want to go somewhere the government won’t let them, but if the government wants to send them somewhere they probably don’t want too. You can think of the new Superman movie for this example. The government could easily make the avengers fight solely for the United States so any wars that happens or whatever the avengers would have no choice but to fight for the US even if it’s wrong. So Steve sees tho and says “yeah maybe we shouldn’t sign this” bc he sees what could happen. And plus, shield was taken over by hyrda, so it’s a good assumption that the army or the United States could also be taken over by someone. So Steve had a valid point.
Tony: it’s hard to defend Tony bc well he’s Tony. He makes irrational decisions and is emotionally unstable at times. The only thing I can say of how he broke the avengers is by trying to force everyone to sign it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but he felt so guilty over the kid who died during one of their battles that he felt the need to sign up with the government to somewhat protect the ppl better. It’s a valid point of what he wanted to do. But he should’ve went about it a different way/better way. He tried to force them to do it, even tried to bribe Steve with a pen from whatever time period it was. And to en he recruits a teenager (child labor laws are now enforced as well as child endangerment) to fight for his side and Peter has no clue what is going on. He’s a kid, who looks up to stark and it goes from there. So I would say he broke them up more than Steve did…
Ross: the only thing Ross did was try to get the accords active. That’s what made all the avengers think about their decisions and what they should do moving forward. He would control all of them and they would all have to listen to them no matter what which doesn’t sound ideal bc going back to my point about Steve, he believes he would use them to further his own gain or for the US. Which turns out, is true when watching brave new world. As he said, if anyone is going to get the new material (adamantium) it’s going to be us (he’s referring to the United States) so yeah…
All in all if I had to put into percentage of who contributed to the fall of the avengers. I would do. Steve, 25, Tony, 50% Ross, 15&, and Zemo, 10%. I feel like this would be fair and accurate. At least in my opinion.